Yesterday evening at the YUSU Awards ceremony a joke was made at the podium comparing the behaviour of York St John’s students with those at York Uni.
Giving the introductory talk before presenting an award in the category of ‘outstanding leadership’, the University’s academic registrar, Kate Dodd, spoke of how her position means she’s responsible for responding to complaints made about students by the non-student residents we share York with. When complaints over loutish, thuggish or otherwise disruptive behaviour come in, she joked, her response is to dismiss them as ‘probably’ relating to York St John students. The implication of her statement being that the student body at our neighbouring institution is overall less civil, less polite, less considerate, and more thuggish than ours – drawing on the popular ‘chav’ stereotype thrown at working-class people, and peddled constantly in the media.
Jokes like this are dangerous. They reinforce the sneering attitudes that legitimise the institutionalised classism in British education – the main difference between students at YSJ and those at York Uni is that the people here are much more likely to have had privileged upbringings, attending either state schools in comfortable suburbs, or even selective fee-paying independent schools. When we imply that the divide between York and YSJ students is based on differences in character, or merit, we miss out on the problematic fact that what we call ‘merit’ is pretty much a product of the system itself: two people, one sent to a poor school, the other to a rich one, will leave education with grades that reflect the quality of the education they got – not some abstract value like ‘personal talent’.
This is uncomfortable for a lot of people to hear, it challenges a lot of the assumptions we make about our own place and status in education. But it is not as upsetting as classist jokes are for the people they make their target. The total recurrent grant that the University of York receives is roughly twice the size of that given to YSJ, proportional to the number of students, and the attitudes that stigmatise working-class students in ex-polytechnic institutions have serious implications for the self-worth and esteem of these students. Being laughed at and told that you are ‘less talented’, or ‘less able’ – ‘less deserving’ – than the people fortunate enough to have got a better education than you is an instance of oppression that all too often goes unchecked.
A lot of people laughed at the joke last night, a lot of people will have just dismissed it as banter, or as just another awkward joke at an event with many. Rivalries between universities are a common and pretty much standard part of student culture. This humour, though, can contain heavily classist undertones, a prejudice just as damaging as homophobia, sexism or racism: these oppressions often intersect with each other, especially in the case of classism.
Oh my god. It was clearly a joke, and a very light hearted one. “a prejudice just as damaging as homophobia, sexism or racism” get over yourself
This is overstating the impact of the joke enormously. The kind of classism you refer to is spread through British society, but this joke (as we know oft-heard on campus) doesn’t make it more pervasive. Your assumption that it is working-class students who fill ex-polytechnic institutions is mislaid – YSJ and others are as multi-regional, multi-class and multi-national as any other institution. The idea that students at YSJ are being told they are less ‘deserving’ is ridiculous – a joke about loutish behaviour doesn’t infer they are less deserving of education/work-opportunities. The image of the chav is also misplaced – it’s culturally specific, refers to (if you believe what Owen Jones says, which with a view like this you probably do) people who are council-housed and violent (hence CHAV), different to kids going to uni to try and improve myself. Classism is an issue in the UK, but some friendly banter betweens unis based on what is frankly ancient history, ain’t it.
Jack going in! Spot on man. Disgusting behavior from senior staff; should we call for some heads ;)…
@Tom
Fair comment. But just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to say that this specific joke contained every element of classism ever. As far as classist jokes go it was pretty tame – especially compared to the stuff you hear from some students. Like, I’m from Manchester and the shit thrown at MMU by UoM is famous. You get people writing stuff online like “Don’t know if I’m in a primary school….or man met”, “I heard you got into Met, so I got you these crayons and safety scissors”, and even that’s less explicit than the stuff you get from the horse’s mouth. The chav stereotype is really played up actually – it isn’t just an acronym for ‘council housed and violent’, it’s used to demean working-class people across generations, in and out of education and employment. And this is especially disgusting when it intersects with sexism, as it does when women from ex-polys are judged and stereotyped as ‘slappers’ on nights out.
And while no body of students is completely homogenous, I find it odd that you don’t see the massive class differences between universities like MMU and Manchester, or YSJ and York. They definitely exist – a consequence of the well documented (so-called) attainment gap between low- and high-income students throughout pre-uni education.
This article is just annoying. It’s just another example of how some people at this university take things too seriously and jump at any opportunity to read into what someone says and find a way to make it offensive, when it was meant very light-heartedly. Relating it to homophobia, sexism and racism..I mean really?? For goodness sakes, stop embarrassing yourselves *facepalm*
This article reads like it was written by a York St John student.
get over yourselves. it was a joke. it wasn’t 9/11 for fucks sake
I have to agree. I thought the joke was in poor taste not to mention an easy low blow to make.
It wasn’t fair or witty, and reinforces things that I hear people say every day; turning up their nose at St Johns insinuating that people who go here are better. The attitude is depressing and probably stops the two unis from combining more often to do great things. (As cheesy and contrived as that sounds)
*University of York….not “York Uni”
And not all independent schools are selective….DO YOUR RESEARCH!
From the sound of the comments, most people replying to this are from University of York. So as a student of YSJ, let me just say that I honestly don’t care that a large group of students were laughing at the expense of a largely generalised ideology of me at a self congratulatory event. Yeah, its not good that high up members of staff are supporting some ‘snobby’ views that shouldn’t really be supported, but all that’s going to happen at any kind of expense is a throw away apology and the ideology stays the same.
I have friends at Univeristy of York, and we joke about the differences between Universities, so its not like I can’t take the gags, but maybe a person who is in more authority than me joking with a larger group of people that I do not know and placing us into some kind of vague derogatory category can be seen as a bit elitist. I do want to say thanks to the author of the article, while I don’t agree with some of the extent of the arguement, most people wouldn’t even give this a second look. But there is an interesting point raised and I think people need to focus on whereabouts in the joke they are actual laughing at and why.
Kate Dodd’s joke was poking fun at herself. It was about ‘passing the buck’ and wiggling out of complaints rather than anything to do with classism. Simmilar jokes would be made by Provosts and JCRC chairs about raising a possibility that perpetrators of anti-social behaviour may be from another college. Indeed, i am prepared to bet identical jokes are made by YSJ staff and students with roles reversed. The implication that this whole article is discussing was simply invalid / not there.
Incidentally, the Leadership award was presented by Dr Jane Grenville (Deputy VC) – not by Kate Dodd.
But have you ever been on a night out with YSJ students? I work part-time with a lot of YSJers and let me tell you, the cliché that ex-polytechnics have more fun is 100% true in this case. On a more serious note, all the YSJers I’ve come across don’t care about the rivalry; they’re happy to get on with their lives. They can also take a joke – AND can even make them at our expense. Shock, horror, etc. I’m from a shite city up north, went to a state school, still did well. Calm your tits.
I went to the same school as people who I know that go to York St John and York Uni… I don’t see how schooling should affect who goes to what school
Data from the market analyst firm Caci: students from the poorest 25% of households make up 6.3% of the student body at universities that ask for at least three B grades at A-level, and as the minimum required grades rises, this percentage falls. Likewise, students from the richest 25% of households make up 55% of admissions at ‘prestigious’ universities. This idea that there’s no discernible difference between a uni like York and one like YSJ in the class character of their student bodies is just ridiculously naive.
@Dr O. Don’t you have a College to run?
The drive towards genuine widening participation at York c.2000-2006 has been replaced by an indifference towards anything that doesn’t fit the Russell Group profile. The University makes clear that it is only really interested in ABB students from traditional routes, plus international students now, as it attempts to compete with other Russell Group universities. It is failing to compete and is increasingly cleansing the university of anyone who is not ‘properly’ middle class at the same time.
Poor joke in poor taste, poorly timed.