The recent launch of a “University of York Memes” Facebook page has caused considerable controversy across campus, with an online war of words erupting between members of the YUSU Womens’ Committee (“WomCom”) and fans of the provocative “memes”. Student opinion has been polarised, with increasingly vicious exchanges between the two camps. In a particularly savage low-blow, one meme even accused WomCom members of having an axe to grind simply because they are “jealous and lonely below average-looking wom[e]n”. Needless to say, this struck a nerve. So much so, in fact, that some members of WomCom are now calling for the memes to be taken down.
What started out as a bit of harmless fun has quickly become an emotionally-charged debate over the relevance of feminism in the post-modern age, and where the boundary lies between what is funny and what is offensive. Some would find all three of the memes posted distasteful, whilst others charge those who have taken offense with being oversensitive. But even if it is reasonable to take offense, when (if ever) is it legitimate to censor such material?
Most people would agree that harmful content should be removed from social networking websites, but it is difficult to determine whether the memes in question really harm anyone. Jokes about rape might serve to trivialise sexual violence but, again, the impact is virtually impossible to measure. It seems risky to define offense as a kind of “emotional harm” (and therefore a legitimate target for censorship), because someone can always be found to take offense at anything. Yet this seems to be the definition adopted by WomCom.
In the past, the issue of censorship has been recognised by YUSU as a matter for a university-wide referendum (see last year’s “Lads Mags” motion), which implies they see offense as a form of harm only insofar as it is deemed offensive by a majority of York students. Yet even this ostensibly reasonable understanding is unsatisfactory, creating as it does create the potential for a “tyranny of the majority” situation in which minorities might be prevented from speaking out on campus.
Censorship is a thorny issue, which is all the more reason not to pick it up in the first place.
Nobody is contesting the right of members of WomCom to feel insulted by anti-feminist memes that ridicule or trivialise important issues of gender equality, but their “right” to call for those memes to be taken down is questionable. To censor these memes would take away their creators’ rights to state their opinions on WomCom – no matter how offensive they are. In any case, what would censorship achieve? Some of these memes are desperately unfunny. Frankly, they parody themselves.
If a meme offends someone, they have the right to stop looking at it. Removing it from Facebook would only bolster the perception of WomCom as an intolerant body; they should simply ignore it and have faith that the rest of us will too.
My views on being offended are quite nicely summed up by one Steve Hughes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs
WomCom as a group never actually gave any statements or indicated they thought the memes should be taken down. Everyone was commenting as individuals.
The only memes I’m aware of that WomCom members (and non-members) actually wanted taken down were the ones trivialising rape, not the ones mocking the committee itself. If the harm of trivialising rape in humour is the issue at hand, I think this is a good place to start; it’s quite convincing and provides a few links to relevant studies and surveys:
http://www.menspeakup.org/why-rape-jokes-are-never-ok
I think it’s a *bit* of an overstantement to say this has provoked a crisis of purpose in the feminist movement. There have always been douchebags, and I guess we’ll keep butting heads with them.
The main thrust of this article is quite weak, it’s main argument is that ‘WomCom’ (scare quotes for the reason that it was not WomCom as a ‘collective’ who were engaged in this debate!) have some overarching aspiration of censorship. If that’s the argument, then that’s to misunderstand what censorship and freedom of speech actually means, and it’s to do so in quite a naive way. Freedom of speech is not the right to say what you want inside an individualist bubble, free from the judgement of the community. This article is merely a ‘special pleading’ for defence of the rape jokes that were posted. Nobody who was against the memes were calling in the police to remove these ‘hilarious’ pictures, they were merely using the force of public shame and pressure to request that these pictures should be redacted. There is a difference between ‘Freedom of Speech’ as a right and agreeing with the content of an individuals free speech.
“If a meme offends someone, they have the right to stop looking at it.”
This article strongly misses the point of why feminists are against rape jokes. People in this debate seem to have a very shallow understanding of what feminists call ‘rape culture’, and indeed of feminism in general. In the face of incredibly smart and detailed feminist analysis, simply crying ‘but.. freedom of speech!’ or ‘Just a joke, mate!’ is not good enough.
I would urge anyone who thinks that rape jokes can be harmless to read the link provided by Gillian Love, above. But also to simply exercise their empathy skills. Men: women live under threat of rape. This is almost impossible for you to imagine, but try. And, some women have been raped. This too is very difficult to empathize with, but try.
Rape joke ‘memes’ are not trivial. Particularly in the context of a university community where women should be allowed to feel safe and at ease.
Oh and ‘V’:
I watched the video that sums up your opinions on ‘offense’. I assume you’re a straight white male, and don’t know what being truly offended actually feels like.
@Tom – I’m a disabled non-white male, yo. Of course I’m too privileged to have any say in any argument, right?
@V,
So how do you work out that people who are offended by racism, misogyny, able-ism etc. have no right to complain? That they should just sit back and take it cos hey, life sucks. They’re choosing to be offended, anyway. Including women who are upset by rape jokes. Genuine question – not being sarcastic.
Or have I misinterpreted the video? Cos that might be where we’re going wrong here?
@Tom,
I’m not saying they have no right to complain, but saying that I AM OFFENDED BY THIS THEREFORE IT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED is stupid. Complain all you like, but you can’t claim that personal offence is grounds for removal of something.
Rape jokes are on a whole different level though, and I understand that – it’s not the fact that they are offensive that is the bother, it’s the fact that they can actually cause serious emotional distress to people. As such, that’s a perfectly legitimate reason to ask for them to be removed (note, I say ask for them to be removed, not demand).
However, “this offends me” is not.
@Tom J: I resent the implication that only women can be raped and, furthermore, that only men commit rape. I agree with the sentiment that rape culture is an issue in society, but generalisations such as those are just as problematic as “jokes” you’re opposing.
Suggesting that men couldn’t possiply empathise with a woman who has been raped is just as offensive as many rape jokes. If you are saying that with your tongue firmly in your cheek, well then, I ask you to consider the possibility that you too are trivialising rape culture.
Rape jokes are offensive to victims of rape, not exclusively to women. Are many of them typically gendered towards women? I would say so, yes. Does this mean male rape victims cannot be offended by them? Of course not.
While it is possibly true that rape culture adversely affects women more than men (although I don’t know statistically how you’d prove that) suggesting that it ONLY affects women is counterproductive.
V,
I think we agree completely. I assumed because you posted the video underneath this article that you were applying that comedian’s opinion to rape jokes too…
Completely agree with you about ask -v- demand, as well.
@ Disco Stu.
I agree. It was insensitive of me to imply that men cannot be victims.
I would say however that rape is primarily a woman’s issue. Of course, men can be victims, but we do not live under the threat of rape in the same way. For women, rape is something real that many of them are forced to think about in everyday situations in their life (walking home alone, leaving drinks unattended, walking down ‘rape alley’ etc.). For men, the threat of rape is akin to the threat of being in a train crash or something. It’s awful when it happens but we have the luxury of not having to worry about it.
This is why rape jokes happen, and why some men like Carney are lucky enough to feel like they’re not a big deal.
Don’t leave drinks unattended, don’t walk home alone, and seriously, don’t walk down unlit pathways. I’m not suggesting that it’s their fault for doing these things, but these are easy measures to take to minimize the chance of dangerous situations.
You do know that women get raped at times other than when they are on nights out/walking home from them right?
Jus’ sayin’.
@V
Hundreds of drivers and passengers are killed each day in traffic accidents caused by drink driving. An easy measure to take to minimize the chance of this not happening to you would be to never get in a car. But you shouldn’t have to compromise your daily life in order to accommodate the possibility of the rare idiot coming along, right?
So maybe a drink driving awareness campaign would be more effective in targeting the actual issue? Likewise, the message should be “don’t rape”, not “don’t get raped”.
V,
what point are you trying to make?
please can you explicitly say what you think instead of dropping in odd little isolated statements, as you have done twice now?
to be honest, I’m saying all this because I really, really want to believe that you’re not saying that if only women were more careful, they wouldn’t have to worry about all this and we wouldn’t have such a fuss. I really want to believe that’s not what you’re saying.
I know that, but it helps to try to minimize potential problems, like not running through traffic.
That Steve Hughes video is quickly becoming my least favourite thing on the internet. A vehicle for morons to jump on so they can defend their ‘right’ to say something.
Tom,
That’s not what I’m saying in the slightest. If you can’t see that then you’re clearly not worth my time continuing this conversation. All I’m saying is that there is an inherent risk here, and there are things that can be done that increase the risk e.g. walking down an unlit road at night, and that avoiding those things would be beneficial.
In the same way, there’s always a risk of getting hit by a car on your way home, but you can reduce the risk by not running across a busy road with no pedestrian crossing.
Comment edited by moderator.
V,
In that case you’re using this thread to give unsolicited, blindingly obvious advice to women on how to “minimize the chance of dangerous situations” (what a phrase!).
Right now, you are derailing this conversation because you think your advice is more important. You’re coming across as pompous and you’re dangerously close to blaming the victim. If you think I’m misreading you, then for god’s sake just re-read what you’ve written and realize how badly you need to make your point clearer, if you have a point (do you?).
Having said that, I’m out now. Not interested in taking this any further, unless it becomes relevant again.
V,
Just to rephrase that then.
You’re implying that someone can have a certain degree of control as to if they get raped or not- so if I am raped, some of the responsibility lies on me. That’s the implication you’re making. “if only I hadn’t worn that skirt” “if only I’d taken a taxi”. Most people are raped by poeple they know: “if only I hadn’t flirted with him”. That doesn’t negate the point that someone violated you- walking down the street in whatever clothes is never, even flirting with someone is never, NEVER a form of consent. That’s the logic rapists use.
Also- most people get raped by people they know, not in dark allies. I’m going to hope this doesn’t happen too often, because from the opinions you state here, you seem like a prick, but I really hope next time you want to go home with a girl she tells you to fuck off because you might violate her.
If you think a girl who walks in the dark alone is partially responsible for her own rape, I’d hate to hear you in a case where someone brings someone home, decides they don’t want sex, and then gets raped.
Attitudes like yours are really helpfull in trying to convince people to report and convict crimes like these.
Why wasn’t my previous comment published? Cheers for that.
This whole issue seems to come down to comedy ( forunless I’m mistaken the memes are designed to be funny?). What some people see as funny isn’t seen as funny by others. Comedy these days can mainly fall into two categories: observational or offensive (no mater how trivially). Look through the memes and try and find one that doesn’t fall into either category.
Of course comedy can be taken too far, but there’s always someone who stands up for the original joke to counter whoever is complaining. Common decency is not common and it’s very hard to set definitive boundaries.
WomCom can do themselves more harm than good sometimes but it’s good that they’re their to have a voice against things like this. Did these memes take things too far? That’s more of an issue of personal taste.
As for V, while your points are somewhat valid you are being quite naive here, and I think we all hope you realise that.
I really have no point – I completely agree with everything you and others have said. I just like to aggravate people for no reason other than the fun of watching them get annoyed at some anonymous idiot over the internet.
I was merely playing Troll’s Advocate (it’s like Devil’s Advocate, but just to be annoying, rather than to help further an argument). My comments were intentionally vague to ensure maximum annoyance.
I grow weary of it, however. I don’t *actually* think that it’s someone’s fault in the slightest if they get raped.
But of course, the Internet is serious business, amirite?
“But of course, the Internet is serious business, amirite?”
Rape is a serious business.
Comment edited by moderator.
@ V
to argue that ‘easy measures to take to minimize the chance of dangerous situations(rape).’ is disgusting, and suggesting that people have some kind of control over whether they are victim of a crime shows a serious misunderstanding.
by playing ‘Troll’s Advocate’ as you call it, you enforce the view held by many in society that whether is woman is attacked has something to do with her own actions
so even if you claim to not believe it, by asserting this view you add to a culture of victim blaming. people who truly hold the views that you say are a joke will only see their views as being confirmed by reading your comments.
There has been a misinterpretation of the main point of the argument here, imo. The first and foremost reason that anyone thought the rape joke and sexual harrassment memes should be removed was on the grounds that allowing the proliferation of rape culture/ rape apologism is directly harmful, as it leads to more rape and violence against women.
The article suggests that those who objected to the meme did so on the grounds of “emotional harm”; the reality goes deeper than this, and that’s an important distinction to make. Similarly, at no point did anyone request the removal of something “because they were offended by it”. In a similar vein, this misses the point: “If a meme offends someone, they have the right to stop looking at it.” – Yes, women have to option to look away if they are upset by something, but as was pointed out above with the drink driving analogy, we all have to live in the same society and it makes sense to try to minimise the risks in that society, for everyone’s benefit.
The Womens’ Officers and WomCom are easily contactable and would be happy to clarify any of these distinctions in future, as (with all respect possible) it’s not really helpful to have campus publications speaking for us/putting words in our mouths, it tends to mean opinions are misrepresented and the debate is seriously skewed as a result.
I am just wondering if there is any evidence to back up your claim that rape jokes leads to more rape and violence towards women. I would say that in modern society there are many more jokes about paedophilia, necrophilia, and child-abuse in stand-up routines than before. I would be surprised if this coincided with an increase in all of those incidents.
This comment thread’s a perfect example of why anonymous commenting on York media websites is a *bad* thing.
Would V be such an ass were his name put to his posts, available for all his future employers to see? Highly doubtful.
In light of Stelhan’s post (who makes a good point about anonymity I suppose) I am outing myself as Disco Stu as a show of support, even though I played a very small role in this discussion. No, I’m not sure why I chose Disco Stu either.
That being said, it would be very easy for V, or indeed anyone, to claim to be somebody they’re not in lieu of forfeiting anonymity. C’est la vie.
[The irony of admitting that I am Disco Stu, of course, is that “Disco Stu doesn’t advertise.” I have brought shame upon this pseudonym.]
“Rape is a serious business[!?]” What kind of sick monster would choose to utilise such a phrase with the clear connotations, within this given context, of prostitution? Or more disturbingly as a form of ‘rape-prostitution’ (I assume it is some twisted cousin of ‘rape-porn’)!?
As I hope you have realised, deliberate misinterpretation of certain phrases and colloquialisms is not only pedantic but also moronic. I am sure many people reading this will not only think that I am a ‘trolling douchebag’ (50% correct), but it also highlights the utter childishness of this line of conduct.
Reading this thread as it progressed you can clearly see the ‘keyboard warriors’ gallantly upholding whatever notions they have – this is not to say that I am trivialising rape: it is wrong, and I doubt you can find anyone to say otherwise – I know girls who have nearly been kidnapped by taxi drivers and of one girl who was raped by one.
Nevertheless the intense political debate which has been hijacked here, would be better served as some official debate on campus, or as someone suggested as a campaign: not isolated to an online article that will be read by about 50 people who have nothing better to do.
To clarify “@Tom”, this article has had over 1000 views, a little over 50.
Oliver Todd.
Editor.